This bio will focus more on family life and the ancestry of Peg and Fred Talmadge, but they were a part of the movie industry therefore information on their life timeline inclused that information. I am researching the Talmadge actresses parents family lines. My children are related to their father's maternal grandmother's CURTIS(S) family, Connecticut -Massachusette's-England history, so I care.
sources listed at each fact, but are: 1920-'24 passport applications of all, newspaper archives, census, city directories, birth, marriage, and death records, familysearch.org, and The Talmadge Girls book, (a 1970's memoir), by Loos, Anita, pub. 1978, (archive.org, many early life photos), who was a writer/editor working with them until 1925.
Peg's parents - a mystery:
A Tallmadge family tree on ancestry.com lists her maiden name as FRITTS, but has no source.
Constance 1929 marriage certificate and Peg's death certificate list her father is Frank Brown and mother ? Jose. Where they were born is confusing and not solid until I find her and family in 1870/80 census. 1900 she lists Ireland, 1910 & '20 she lists NY, 1930 not yet found. Norma's death certificate listed Peg's maiden name "Jose" and that she was born in Spain, but Norma's third husband, who never knew her mother, was certificate informant so I do not take his word. The clues I have (from published book by a person who knew them personally) are that her father was a plumber. So far, an 1870/'80 search NY and Jersey City for a man, born Ireland or NY, with a daughter named Margaret/Maggie/Peg/Louise, has not been found. Also, "plumber" was not a profession until indoor plumbing. He was also a member of the Catholic Knights of Columbus. No mention of siblings in the book. Ancestry.com nor Familysearch does not list a Frank or Francis Brown marrying a woman with surname Jose.
There is much on the statements Peg would make about life which sound like Irish idioms.
1893 Jersey City City directory lists Frank Brown, a plumber, at 130 Montgomery, no wife name.
Peg's DOB is dubious: each census and two 1920's passport applications lists: 1861, 1863, 1864, 1867 , her headstone has 1870.death certificate lists born 3 Nov 1864, her 1924 passport (a legal document) lists 1867, at Govenors Island, NY, (an Army base at that time), daughter of Frank BROWN and ? Jose. 1900 census she lists parents both born Ireland, thereafter New York.
She married, desperate, at age 29, January 15, 1893, From a memoire, her parents did not approve of her marriage so she broke relations with them., to CT-born and raised, 24yo, Frederick J Talmadge, the only child of CT-born, John W. and Martha (Curtiss) Talmadge of Bristol, Hartford Co, CT then moved by 1880 to Plainville, CT. Peg would refer to her husband as "that skunk", he had been a salesman of carnival-ware when they met, but often going job to job or not working according to Peg in a memoir. She made money as a "home laundress" and claimed she taught painting on black velvet to other homemakers, rented a bedroom to an Austrian waiter for $6 per week (who supposedly wanted to marry her, not found with them in census) and canvassed the neighbors to buy cosmetics. She claims they moved to Brooklyn soon after marriage but Norma is born in NJ. Fred would gain employment with the Jones Brothers Carnival company as a publicist and go on the road, not living with the family. Did Peg consider this abandonment? Or did she deny him returning to the family?
Why did Fred move to NYC as a young man? The couple first lived in Jersey City, NJ (according to Norma's birth) until 1896 then to Brooklyn, NY (according to Norma's 1924 passport application and census) had three daughters by 1900.
1900 Brooklyn, NY census, the family is boarding at 258-59th st / 2nd Ave near waterfront (just north of Coney Island) with the Alexander family: Fred, born CT, Margaret born NY of Irish-born parents. DOB of daughters is diff than headstones, but hard to argue with 1900 census :
Norma May (Marie in 1922 passport), 1894 NJ
Natalie M. "Nate", April 19, 1896 NY
Constance Alice "Dutch", April 29, 1898 NY
Fred works for a book publisher. There is a story that Fred abaondons the family Christmas, 1900, wrong year of this happening and the actuality.
1910 Brooklyn at 231 Fennimore, Brooklyn, NY, SE Prospect Park, couple together with 3 dau. aged: 11,13,15, either he did not abandon his family 1900 or it happened Christmas, 1910, he works as an advertising agent, Peg does not list she is a washer woman as she claims she was and there is no male roomate at this time, none of the girls are listed working. Margt now lists parents born NY vs Ireland. Peg would lie in a memoir that Fred left the family on xmas morning 1900 to get hamburgers at age 7, 8, 10, but here they are 1910 much older. A classmate of Norma and Nate was modeling for a photographer at Union Hill so Peg started 14yo Norma modeling $3 per day, lying that she was age 16. The Vitagraph Motion Picture Co. in Flatbush was a trolley ride away so Peg took some Illustrated song slides to show of Norma at the casting office to pass her off as a professional and she became a player. Peg engaged the help of Breta Breuill by her pushiness then continue "volunteering" in her office to have access to reading scripts. So Norma's work must have allowed her NOT to be a washer woman! She pushed Norma into get her on 100 short stories bit parts making $2.50 per day then $25 and becoming part of the stock company and droping out of high school two years later making $250 per week. She got Nat into being an office girl at Comique and started Constance "Dutch" working in movies. The lived in a hotel "in the west forties" and headed to Broadway. Norma started going to parties at the Ritz Hotel where she met Joe who with his brother, Nicholas FAG #6638759, had a studio and a New Jersey amusement park who also in the building was Fatty Arbuckle and " Buster" Keaton.
1915 state census, John is listed with them, Peg, all three girls aged 16, 18, 20, live at 254 Midwood, Brooklyn, the girls list occupation " working in films". CT grandfather John Talmadge dies, rumor has it that the girls went to his funeral and visited their grandmother as children, acting out plays at "the old stone house".
1916 Norma marries at Stamford, CT, 19 yrs senior, movie producer, Joseph Michael Schenck, "daddy", Peg got them out to Hollywood making a flop movie with D.W. Griffith to put the girls in movie Intollerance and Social Secretary for Norma, then returned to NY stating "Southern California doesn't live up to the postcards"! They all lived at the Ambassedor Hotel on Park Ave. The girls drove to studio or around NYC in a cadillac and Nate was working answering Norma and Constance's fan mail. Now that the girls were making money, Peg, close to her 50's, took on homemaker duties and being a mom vs a "stage mother". Constance was often partying in Harlem and the girls were friends of Fannie Brice who ran a dress shop out of her apartment where the girls often shopped for fancy dresses. Joe started working on getting Natalie and Joe "Buster" Keaton married.
1920 NYC census, Margaret, Natalie and Constance are living at 763 Fifth Ave, across the street from southern-most Central Park which makes this the Savoy-Plaza Hotel, demolished in 1965, also Natalie and Constance lists in 1920 passport living in Hotel Savoy which they could now afford because Constance is making one movie after another. Sail Mauritania? for trip to FRance, Spain,Holland, Belgian, Italy and S witzerland. From another story, Margaret identified husband, Fred, on an icy park bench in New York on Riverside Drive as they drove by in their "caddy", a drunken vagrant, Peg pointed him out to the girls. Constance insisted they rescue him and he later got work on film crews from son-in-law movie producer, Joseph Schenck. 1920 and '24 the Talmadge girls took European cruises while Constance or Norma made a film overseas and Peg accompanied.
1920 Peg applies for passport listing Fred living at Fulton Theater in Brooklyn? going to UK, France, Switzerland and 10 other countries, May to Sept
1920, Dec. 29 newspaper announces marriage of Constance at Greenwich, CT, to 26yo Greek-born, wealthy, recent (1912) emigrant, owner of Pialogiou Tobacco Co. on 1 Liberty St who lived in the St Regis Hotel , John J PIALOGIOU,
1921, Natalie marries 26yo Joseph Frank "Buster" Keaton,
June, according to Fred's death certificate, moved to CA. All moved to California since the days of sunshine made filming easier and less costly of NY light rental. At first they all lived in the Hollywood Hotel at 6811 Hollywood Blvd, where many silent film people lived
1922 Natalie has retired and lists herself a housewife
Constance files div. 5-1922 due to cruelty
1924 L.A. Constance and Norma listed living at 5341 Melrose ave, the "Jinx Mansion" (http://allanellenberger.com/tag/joseph-m-schenck/), which is south of Hollywood Forever Cem. this mansion was turned into an apartment building about 1950's. Nate still lives on Ingram St south of here.
1924 the whole family applies for passports.
L.A. newspaper listed highest paying tax payer, Margaret, $9K, to compare, Mary Pickford paid $2,400. Norma or husband not on the list.
1925 Fred dies, Margaret uses her maiden name. Frederick Talmadge died at the brand new Chase Diet Sanatorium of nephritis, Norma was generous in paying for his care and burying him in the family crypt,
1926-mother-in-law, Martha Culver-Talmadge dies January,
1930-Peg lives at Norma's Santa Monica beach house north of the Santa Monica Pier, 1020 Ocean Front, now Pacific Palisades/ PCH Hwy 1, with is just south of the inclind Rd, and below Washington Ave up the cliffs, still stands. lives here until her death.
1931 Margaret, has breast cancer, removing the left breast, but cancer metasticis to her lungs, killing her in 1933. death cert. listed she lived with dau. at Norma's beach house, 1933 several newspaper reports lies to the public of her contracting influenza while at Santa Monica home (which was Natalie's) then turned to pneumonia, Norma listed estranged from Joe and flying in from NY, Constance flew in from NY.
News papers report that both Constance and Norma owned their own production companies.
https://wfpp.columbia.edu/pioneer/ccp-constance-talmadge-and-norma-talmadge/
Norma history
DOB from 1900 census.
1916 Norma marries at Stamford, CT, 19 yrs senior, movie producer, Joseph Michael Schenck, "daddy", who emigrated with his parents Hiram and Elizabeth, bro Nicholas, sis. Annie NAYFACK (who all stayed living in NYC),naturalized 1901, one of the then heads of Loew Theaters, two months after they met at Ritz Hotel parties, due to Peg's chastity requirements.. He had a studio to film her early movies at 318 East Forty-Eighth St., helped her and sister Constance start their own production companies. he tried to get Sam Goldwyn (MGM) to hire Norma to no avail (I think Norma resented his failure). 1917 a news article stated Norma is making $1000/week, Joe and Norma owned a mansion at Bayside, NY, on Little Neck Bay, where the family had many parties and BBQ's. Peg got them out to Hollywood making a flop movie with D.W. Griffith to put the girls in movie Intollerance and Social Secretary for Norma, then returned to NY stating "Southern California doesn't live up to the postcards"! They all lived at the Ambassedor Hotel on Park Ave. The girls drove to studio or around NYC in a cadillac and Nate was working answering Norma and Constance's fan mail. Now that the girls were making money, Peg, close to her 50's, took on homemaker duties and being a mom vs a "stage mother". Joe and Norma owned a mansion at Bayside, NY, on Little Neck Bay, where the family had many parties and BBQ's. the girls were friends of Fannie Brice who ran a dress shop out of her apartment where the girls often shopped for fancy dresses. Joe influenced getting secretary Natalie and Joe "Buster" Keaton married. Between 1915-'20 there are numberous newspaper ads of salon only for Norma's type of hair curls or face cream ads.
1920 NYC census, Norma and Joe not yet found. mother, Margaret, Natalie and Constance are living at 763 Fifth Ave, across the street from southern-most Central Park which makes this the Savoy-Plaza Hotel, demolished in 1965. Did she Sail Mauritania? for trip to FRance, Spain,Holland, Belgian, Italy and S witzerland with mother and siblings? 1920 and '24 the Talmadge girls took European cruises while Constance or Norma made a film overseas.
1920 Norma and Joe Sail on Ship Imperator with the Pickfords: through the '20's tries voice lessons to break into "talkies", but is criticized, Constance told her to retire due to the trust funds their mother set up for them. She had made 5 million on her films.
1921, June: All moved to California since the days of sunshine made filming easier and less costly of NY light rental. At first they all lived in the Hollywood Hotel at 6811 Hollywood Blvd, where many silent film people lived and here Nate met Irving Thalberg who tried to maker her his wife, but she preferred partying with gay men, maybe he wasn't wealthy enough?
1922 Buy and move in the "Jinx Mansion" straight north of sister Nate on Wilshire/Ingram, the Ralph's grocery magnet's mansion on Hollywood Blvd/Fuller Ave (now an apartment).on a European trip, Joe securies some teaching in "Bolshevism" to see if "Sovietism" works, he is a Russian emigrant...another article mentions Norma and Constance travelling with him. were they called in during McCarthy era trials on communism?
1924 the whole family applies for passports. Norma lists addres as 7269 Hollywood blvd/ N. Fuller Ave, L.A.
1927 Norma separates from Joe, moves out of "Jinx Mansion" to Harper Ave/Sunset Blvd Apt., he moved but kept the house until 1940 when it was razed and Peyton Hall Apt built. book claims she wanted Joe buying her jewels. she started an affair with co-actor Gilbert Roland.
1928 John Byers builds a 6,500 sf, 6 bd/bath, Spanish Colonial house on Hwy 1, just north of the Santa Monica Pier, at 1020 Ocean Front Ave (now Palisades Beach Rd and still stands with a parking lot on the north side), her mother is listed living at that beach house in 1930-33. Her neighbors are Lewis B Mayer, Marion Davies (mistress of W. R. Hearst, seen at her funeral)
1930-1 the couple are listed in city directory at 1038 Ocean Front (PCH) although in the 1940's Joe buys Harry Warner (of Warner Bros) house at 609 Ocean Front,
1930's Joe start Twentith Century Studios with Darryl Zanuck but does not get work for Norma, is this really why she divorced him?
1934 Norma divorces Joseph after her mother dies, remarried 2 wks later at New Jersey by the mayor to comedian Geo. JESSEL.she now retired, proported to have made $7500/wk at the height of career, with crippling arthritis became addicted to pain pills. Joe is now president of United Artists and his brother Nicholas of MGM, In a 1934 passport she lists her address at 243 Clark Aee, Palm Beach, FL (not the house that stands there today), did she sell the Santa Monica house?
1935 Fl West Palm Beach census the couple listed at El Bravo Way, she retired
1939 Norma divorces Jessel.
1940 not found in census but must live at Santa Monica house until 1947 although she has West Palm Beach address
1947 marriage to her Beverly Hills physician Carvel JAMES (treated her arthritis) who leaves his wife and 6 children, most are grown. 1947-1957 Las Vegas address is 2047 W Charleston Bl which is northenmost L.V., just south of Fremont Street casinos, which at that time was the main part of gambling. Her husband is listed retired.
1953 Panama City News reports that Norma had built a 14 room mansion at Ft Lauderdale, FL
1957 Norma, who had used a wheelchair due to arthritis, dies of pneumonia after a stroke at 2047 W. Charleston Blvd., Las Vegas, NV, now condos, left her home in LV to husband, other real estate of 3 million (Santa Monica? Ft Laud. house, ?) to sisters.
Constance Alice "Dutch" history
DOB from 1900 census middle name from 1920 passport application, nickname from book. 1920 Constance applied for a passport which had a photo of her father and his address of 304 State St, Brooklyn, NY. She is living at the Hotel Savoy, NY and occupation is "motion picture star",
1920, Dec. 29 newspaper announces marriage of Constance at Greenwich, CT, to 26yo Greek-born, wealthy, recent (1912) emigrant, owner of Pialogiou Tobacco Co. on 1 Liberty St who lived in the St Regis Hotel , John J PIALOGIOU, (photo of them at Natalie's wedding in The Talmadge Girls book) reported in NYC newspaper, they were equally wealth as she makes $250K/yr and the numerous movies she had made by then, they lived apart from April, 1921 when she moved to CA and he did not move, probably due to his NY business
1922, June-Constance files divorce due to cruelty (courts required a reason), lives with Norma
L.A. newspaper listed highest paying tax payers, Constance paid $10K,
1926 Constance married 2nd time to Scottish Alistair MacIntoshat Jean de St Cyr, (a playboy made rich marrying older women who die and leave him inheritance, she may have met in as a producer in NYC) San Mateo, CA estate , abandoned during their honeymoon (he went to FL alone) stating she would seek a Edinburgh divorce on grounds of his adultry.
1927 divorce granted
1929- May Constance marries 3rd husband: wealthy, recent divorced (over their affair) Townsend NETCHER, who had been a Chicago VP of family owned, The Boston Store, retired by 40 and living off his company and real estate interest (his mother ran the business until 1955). she retires from making movies, married at sister Natalie's "Itallion Villa" mansion on Pamela Dr, Beverly Hills.
1930-Constance and Townsend Netcher build modest house at 1705 Chevy Chase Dr/Benedict Canyon Dr (north of sunset blvs), Beverly Hills, but city directory lists them living at Norma's 1020 Ocean Front (PCH) beach house 1933-1935, she 1935 onward.
1939 Connie divorces Netcher 1-'39 after 10 years marriage and 2.5 years marital desertion, remarries in 2 weeks in NYC at Chelsea Presbytarian Church to divorced (from Elizabeth with son Walter Jr) Chicago born Walter Michael GIBLIN, (John T, stock broker and Ida H. Jenkins), move to NYC when his ex wife and son move to Manhattan, he is a Wall St. stock broker,live at 115 E 67th St 1942
1946-1959 Constance is known to be an alcoholic, lives at the Drake Hotel, NY at 440 Park Ave (now demolished) with wall street broker husband, Walter Giblin. When he died in 1964 and left his fortune to her, his family berated her for it. She moved to Santa Monica, did she live with Nate or did Norma leave her house to her? Constance, the last to live, drank her life away and became "heavy" at the Beverly Wilshire Hotel, seen mainly by the bar staff, dying 1973.
Natalie "Nate" history
DOB from 1900 census, nick name from book
1921, Natalie marries 26yo Joseph Frank "Buster" Keaton, a vaudvaillian all his life now movie producer, he became an alcoholic like his own father, with erratic behavior, they had 2 sons and both given middle names of "Talmadge", div. They initially move to 4011 Ingraham St/Wilshire Blvd,
1922-Natalie has retired and lists herself a housewife in her 2 sons birth cert., living at 59 W. Mooreland Place, L.A., they had a succession of five homes around L.A. while Buster just wanted a cottage, he had erratic behavior so they div. 1932, raised her sons with Talmadge surname in northenmost Malibu, then Santa Monica.
L.A. newspaper listed highest paying tax payer: Natalie, $1,600,
1926 build the 10K sf "Itallion Villa" https://quintessentialruminations.wordpress.com/2013/08/13/buster-keatons-italian-villa/ for $200K, Nate had whole west wing while Buster preferred just a bedroom
1932 Nate divorced husband, writers claim she was demanding of his income and he couldn't keep up, she uses surname " Talmadge" in their schooling, they were court ordered no visits but rekindle with Buster in 1940's when they were adults. she got the house in the divorce but sold it.
1940 Natalie is raising her teen sons by Leo Carrillo state park on then Roosevelt Hwy, now PCH, Malibu, (almost to Pt Mugu) next door is Anatole Litvak, amazing she didn't get back into "the biz", sisters not found in census
1942 goes to court with adult sons who agree to change their surname to Talmadge and Joseph changed his first name to James
1966 Nate sufferred arthritis as her sister, Norma, according to the book, died disinterested in living in a Santa Monica Nursing home.
Natalie's sons:
surname changed in court 1942 (not at 1932 divorce) to Talmadge, both boys had the middle name of "Talmadge" so they just dropped their father's surname. Joseph changed his first name to James, his mother had always called him "Jimmy", they
grew up in Malibu, lived as adults in Santa Monica until 1970 atleast.
1950's the Keaton boys work for ex-uncle Schenck at 20th Century studios, .
1942 Joseph changed James "Jimmy" joined coast guard, married 1943 to Barbara Jane TICHENOR, (Geo. Emmons, teacher and Huldah Jane COONS, of MI and Santa Monica) lived Santa Monica within 10 bocks of Robert 1966 when mother died, by 1990's lived in Santa Ynez, had 3 sons, James Conner (d. 2007), Michael and Mark, dau. Melissa COX, nine gk, and 5 ggk by his 2007 death.
1942 Robert "Bob" NMN Talmadge, 18, registered for the draft, lived with his mother at 18904 malibu road, malibu, ca (the city of), worked for Fred R Clark at 18601 Malibu Rd, he married by 1954 (per her father's obit) to Esoleta (Patricia" "Pat") Marie McGough- Farmer (Lee P), b. 1916 Mitchell, TX, (Father:Thomas Newton McGough, Mother: Laura Vivian Cox, 1930 lived Colton, CA, she attended Pasadena JC) who had a son, Gerald Lee, in previous marriage, appears they had no children, lived in Santa Monica within 10 blocks of brother, Joe. cit directory places him in Reno in late '50's, in mother's 1966 obit Santa Monica, 1974 San Diego, by 1976 lives in Del Mar where he died 2009. Pat died 1991.
James' obit: Santa Ynez Valley News Feb. 25, 2007: James Talmadge
On Wednesday, Feb. 14, 2007, James Talmadge (born Joseph Talmadge Keaton) passed away peacefully with his wife of 63 years, the love of his life, Barbara Talmadge, by his side.
Born June 2, 1922, first-born son of Natalie Talmadge and comedian Buster Keaton, nephew of silent-screen actresses Norma and Constance Talmadge, Jim attended Blackfox Military Academy and Santa Monica High School.
Veteran:
He joined the U.S. Coast Guard in the summer of 1942 and volunteered for the OSS (Overseas Strategic Services, now the CIA) as an underwater demolition expert in 1943. He served in the CIB Theater (China, India, Burma), where he worked in a British one-man submarine wearing the Lambertson Rebreather Unit. While based in Ceylon, his mission was to blow up nets in Singapore, Hong Kong and Tokyo harbors. He trained in the Bahamas where they swam 14 hours a day. In one of his missions, he went out in a hurricane to recover the bodies of two British pilots who were shot down and trapped in their plane underwater.
After the war, he worked as a publicist/photographer at 20th Century Fox. He was an avid collector and expert on firearms. He also built and restored antique automobiles, especially Model T's, Model A's and boat-tail speedsters. He was an expert on Duesenbergs (he owned eight) and was often consulted for his knowledge on their history and restoration. He spent many years of his life with family and friends exploring and camping in the high deserts of California. Another of his favorite places to travel and spend time with his family was up in the High Sierra camps in Yosemite.
Born in Los Angeles, he lived in Southern California for 50 years. He spent the last 28 years (moved 1979) in the Santa Ynez Valley. He is survived by his wife, Barbara; his sons Michael Talmadge, Mark Talmadge; daughter Melissa Talmadge Cox; and his brother Bob Talmadge.
He was predeceased by his oldest son, Jim C. Talmadge, by two months.
He leaves behind daughters-in-law Rosie Talmadge, Betty Talmadge and Gail Talmadge; son-in-law Bill Cox; nine grandchildren and five great-grandchildren; and two nieces and two nephews.
sources listed at each fact, but are: 1920-'24 passport applications of all, newspaper archives, census, city directories, birth, marriage, and death records, familysearch.org, and The Talmadge Girls book, (a 1970's memoir), by Loos, Anita, pub. 1978, (archive.org, many early life photos), who was a writer/editor working with them until 1925.
Peg's parents - a mystery:
A Tallmadge family tree on ancestry.com lists her maiden name as FRITTS, but has no source.
Constance 1929 marriage certificate and Peg's death certificate list her father is Frank Brown and mother ? Jose. Where they were born is confusing and not solid until I find her and family in 1870/80 census. 1900 she lists Ireland, 1910 & '20 she lists NY, 1930 not yet found. Norma's death certificate listed Peg's maiden name "Jose" and that she was born in Spain, but Norma's third husband, who never knew her mother, was certificate informant so I do not take his word. The clues I have (from published book by a person who knew them personally) are that her father was a plumber. So far, an 1870/'80 search NY and Jersey City for a man, born Ireland or NY, with a daughter named Margaret/Maggie/Peg/Louise, has not been found. Also, "plumber" was not a profession until indoor plumbing. He was also a member of the Catholic Knights of Columbus. No mention of siblings in the book. Ancestry.com nor Familysearch does not list a Frank or Francis Brown marrying a woman with surname Jose.
There is much on the statements Peg would make about life which sound like Irish idioms.
1893 Jersey City City directory lists Frank Brown, a plumber, at 130 Montgomery, no wife name.
Peg's DOB is dubious: each census and two 1920's passport applications lists: 1861, 1863, 1864, 1867 , her headstone has 1870.death certificate lists born 3 Nov 1864, her 1924 passport (a legal document) lists 1867, at Govenors Island, NY, (an Army base at that time), daughter of Frank BROWN and ? Jose. 1900 census she lists parents both born Ireland, thereafter New York.
She married, desperate, at age 29, January 15, 1893, From a memoire, her parents did not approve of her marriage so she broke relations with them., to CT-born and raised, 24yo, Frederick J Talmadge, the only child of CT-born, John W. and Martha (Curtiss) Talmadge of Bristol, Hartford Co, CT then moved by 1880 to Plainville, CT. Peg would refer to her husband as "that skunk", he had been a salesman of carnival-ware when they met, but often going job to job or not working according to Peg in a memoir. She made money as a "home laundress" and claimed she taught painting on black velvet to other homemakers, rented a bedroom to an Austrian waiter for $6 per week (who supposedly wanted to marry her, not found with them in census) and canvassed the neighbors to buy cosmetics. She claims they moved to Brooklyn soon after marriage but Norma is born in NJ. Fred would gain employment with the Jones Brothers Carnival company as a publicist and go on the road, not living with the family. Did Peg consider this abandonment? Or did she deny him returning to the family?
Why did Fred move to NYC as a young man? The couple first lived in Jersey City, NJ (according to Norma's birth) until 1896 then to Brooklyn, NY (according to Norma's 1924 passport application and census) had three daughters by 1900.
1900 Brooklyn, NY census, the family is boarding at 258-59th st / 2nd Ave near waterfront (just north of Coney Island) with the Alexander family: Fred, born CT, Margaret born NY of Irish-born parents. DOB of daughters is diff than headstones, but hard to argue with 1900 census :
Norma May (Marie in 1922 passport), 1894 NJ
Natalie M. "Nate", April 19, 1896 NY
Constance Alice "Dutch", April 29, 1898 NY
Fred works for a book publisher. There is a story that Fred abaondons the family Christmas, 1900, wrong year of this happening and the actuality.
1910 Brooklyn at 231 Fennimore, Brooklyn, NY, SE Prospect Park, couple together with 3 dau. aged: 11,13,15, either he did not abandon his family 1900 or it happened Christmas, 1910, he works as an advertising agent, Peg does not list she is a washer woman as she claims she was and there is no male roomate at this time, none of the girls are listed working. Margt now lists parents born NY vs Ireland. Peg would lie in a memoir that Fred left the family on xmas morning 1900 to get hamburgers at age 7, 8, 10, but here they are 1910 much older. A classmate of Norma and Nate was modeling for a photographer at Union Hill so Peg started 14yo Norma modeling $3 per day, lying that she was age 16. The Vitagraph Motion Picture Co. in Flatbush was a trolley ride away so Peg took some Illustrated song slides to show of Norma at the casting office to pass her off as a professional and she became a player. Peg engaged the help of Breta Breuill by her pushiness then continue "volunteering" in her office to have access to reading scripts. So Norma's work must have allowed her NOT to be a washer woman! She pushed Norma into get her on 100 short stories bit parts making $2.50 per day then $25 and becoming part of the stock company and droping out of high school two years later making $250 per week. She got Nat into being an office girl at Comique and started Constance "Dutch" working in movies. The lived in a hotel "in the west forties" and headed to Broadway. Norma started going to parties at the Ritz Hotel where she met Joe who with his brother, Nicholas FAG #6638759, had a studio and a New Jersey amusement park who also in the building was Fatty Arbuckle and " Buster" Keaton.
1915 state census, John is listed with them, Peg, all three girls aged 16, 18, 20, live at 254 Midwood, Brooklyn, the girls list occupation " working in films". CT grandfather John Talmadge dies, rumor has it that the girls went to his funeral and visited their grandmother as children, acting out plays at "the old stone house".
1916 Norma marries at Stamford, CT, 19 yrs senior, movie producer, Joseph Michael Schenck, "daddy", Peg got them out to Hollywood making a flop movie with D.W. Griffith to put the girls in movie Intollerance and Social Secretary for Norma, then returned to NY stating "Southern California doesn't live up to the postcards"! They all lived at the Ambassedor Hotel on Park Ave. The girls drove to studio or around NYC in a cadillac and Nate was working answering Norma and Constance's fan mail. Now that the girls were making money, Peg, close to her 50's, took on homemaker duties and being a mom vs a "stage mother". Constance was often partying in Harlem and the girls were friends of Fannie Brice who ran a dress shop out of her apartment where the girls often shopped for fancy dresses. Joe started working on getting Natalie and Joe "Buster" Keaton married.
1920 NYC census, Margaret, Natalie and Constance are living at 763 Fifth Ave, across the street from southern-most Central Park which makes this the Savoy-Plaza Hotel, demolished in 1965, also Natalie and Constance lists in 1920 passport living in Hotel Savoy which they could now afford because Constance is making one movie after another. Sail Mauritania? for trip to FRance, Spain,Holland, Belgian, Italy and S witzerland. From another story, Margaret identified husband, Fred, on an icy park bench in New York on Riverside Drive as they drove by in their "caddy", a drunken vagrant, Peg pointed him out to the girls. Constance insisted they rescue him and he later got work on film crews from son-in-law movie producer, Joseph Schenck. 1920 and '24 the Talmadge girls took European cruises while Constance or Norma made a film overseas and Peg accompanied.
1920 Peg applies for passport listing Fred living at Fulton Theater in Brooklyn? going to UK, France, Switzerland and 10 other countries, May to Sept
1920, Dec. 29 newspaper announces marriage of Constance at Greenwich, CT, to 26yo Greek-born, wealthy, recent (1912) emigrant, owner of Pialogiou Tobacco Co. on 1 Liberty St who lived in the St Regis Hotel , John J PIALOGIOU,
1921, Natalie marries 26yo Joseph Frank "Buster" Keaton,
June, according to Fred's death certificate, moved to CA. All moved to California since the days of sunshine made filming easier and less costly of NY light rental. At first they all lived in the Hollywood Hotel at 6811 Hollywood Blvd, where many silent film people lived
1922 Natalie has retired and lists herself a housewife
Constance files div. 5-1922 due to cruelty
1924 L.A. Constance and Norma listed living at 5341 Melrose ave, the "Jinx Mansion" (http://allanellenberger.com/tag/joseph-m-schenck/), which is south of Hollywood Forever Cem. this mansion was turned into an apartment building about 1950's. Nate still lives on Ingram St south of here.
1924 the whole family applies for passports.
L.A. newspaper listed highest paying tax payer, Margaret, $9K, to compare, Mary Pickford paid $2,400. Norma or husband not on the list.
1925 Fred dies, Margaret uses her maiden name. Frederick Talmadge died at the brand new Chase Diet Sanatorium of nephritis, Norma was generous in paying for his care and burying him in the family crypt,
1926-mother-in-law, Martha Culver-Talmadge dies January,
1930-Peg lives at Norma's Santa Monica beach house north of the Santa Monica Pier, 1020 Ocean Front, now Pacific Palisades/ PCH Hwy 1, with is just south of the inclind Rd, and below Washington Ave up the cliffs, still stands. lives here until her death.
1931 Margaret, has breast cancer, removing the left breast, but cancer metasticis to her lungs, killing her in 1933. death cert. listed she lived with dau. at Norma's beach house, 1933 several newspaper reports lies to the public of her contracting influenza while at Santa Monica home (which was Natalie's) then turned to pneumonia, Norma listed estranged from Joe and flying in from NY, Constance flew in from NY.
News papers report that both Constance and Norma owned their own production companies.
https://wfpp.columbia.edu/pioneer/ccp-constance-talmadge-and-norma-talmadge/
Norma history
DOB from 1900 census.
1916 Norma marries at Stamford, CT, 19 yrs senior, movie producer, Joseph Michael Schenck, "daddy", who emigrated with his parents Hiram and Elizabeth, bro Nicholas, sis. Annie NAYFACK (who all stayed living in NYC),naturalized 1901, one of the then heads of Loew Theaters, two months after they met at Ritz Hotel parties, due to Peg's chastity requirements.. He had a studio to film her early movies at 318 East Forty-Eighth St., helped her and sister Constance start their own production companies. he tried to get Sam Goldwyn (MGM) to hire Norma to no avail (I think Norma resented his failure). 1917 a news article stated Norma is making $1000/week, Joe and Norma owned a mansion at Bayside, NY, on Little Neck Bay, where the family had many parties and BBQ's. Peg got them out to Hollywood making a flop movie with D.W. Griffith to put the girls in movie Intollerance and Social Secretary for Norma, then returned to NY stating "Southern California doesn't live up to the postcards"! They all lived at the Ambassedor Hotel on Park Ave. The girls drove to studio or around NYC in a cadillac and Nate was working answering Norma and Constance's fan mail. Now that the girls were making money, Peg, close to her 50's, took on homemaker duties and being a mom vs a "stage mother". Joe and Norma owned a mansion at Bayside, NY, on Little Neck Bay, where the family had many parties and BBQ's. the girls were friends of Fannie Brice who ran a dress shop out of her apartment where the girls often shopped for fancy dresses. Joe influenced getting secretary Natalie and Joe "Buster" Keaton married. Between 1915-'20 there are numberous newspaper ads of salon only for Norma's type of hair curls or face cream ads.
1920 NYC census, Norma and Joe not yet found. mother, Margaret, Natalie and Constance are living at 763 Fifth Ave, across the street from southern-most Central Park which makes this the Savoy-Plaza Hotel, demolished in 1965. Did she Sail Mauritania? for trip to FRance, Spain,Holland, Belgian, Italy and S witzerland with mother and siblings? 1920 and '24 the Talmadge girls took European cruises while Constance or Norma made a film overseas.
1920 Norma and Joe Sail on Ship Imperator with the Pickfords: through the '20's tries voice lessons to break into "talkies", but is criticized, Constance told her to retire due to the trust funds their mother set up for them. She had made 5 million on her films.
1921, June: All moved to California since the days of sunshine made filming easier and less costly of NY light rental. At first they all lived in the Hollywood Hotel at 6811 Hollywood Blvd, where many silent film people lived and here Nate met Irving Thalberg who tried to maker her his wife, but she preferred partying with gay men, maybe he wasn't wealthy enough?
1922 Buy and move in the "Jinx Mansion" straight north of sister Nate on Wilshire/Ingram, the Ralph's grocery magnet's mansion on Hollywood Blvd/Fuller Ave (now an apartment).on a European trip, Joe securies some teaching in "Bolshevism" to see if "Sovietism" works, he is a Russian emigrant...another article mentions Norma and Constance travelling with him. were they called in during McCarthy era trials on communism?
1924 the whole family applies for passports. Norma lists addres as 7269 Hollywood blvd/ N. Fuller Ave, L.A.
1927 Norma separates from Joe, moves out of "Jinx Mansion" to Harper Ave/Sunset Blvd Apt., he moved but kept the house until 1940 when it was razed and Peyton Hall Apt built. book claims she wanted Joe buying her jewels. she started an affair with co-actor Gilbert Roland.
1928 John Byers builds a 6,500 sf, 6 bd/bath, Spanish Colonial house on Hwy 1, just north of the Santa Monica Pier, at 1020 Ocean Front Ave (now Palisades Beach Rd and still stands with a parking lot on the north side), her mother is listed living at that beach house in 1930-33. Her neighbors are Lewis B Mayer, Marion Davies (mistress of W. R. Hearst, seen at her funeral)
1930-1 the couple are listed in city directory at 1038 Ocean Front (PCH) although in the 1940's Joe buys Harry Warner (of Warner Bros) house at 609 Ocean Front,
1930's Joe start Twentith Century Studios with Darryl Zanuck but does not get work for Norma, is this really why she divorced him?
1934 Norma divorces Joseph after her mother dies, remarried 2 wks later at New Jersey by the mayor to comedian Geo. JESSEL.she now retired, proported to have made $7500/wk at the height of career, with crippling arthritis became addicted to pain pills. Joe is now president of United Artists and his brother Nicholas of MGM, In a 1934 passport she lists her address at 243 Clark Aee, Palm Beach, FL (not the house that stands there today), did she sell the Santa Monica house?
1935 Fl West Palm Beach census the couple listed at El Bravo Way, she retired
1939 Norma divorces Jessel.
1940 not found in census but must live at Santa Monica house until 1947 although she has West Palm Beach address
1947 marriage to her Beverly Hills physician Carvel JAMES (treated her arthritis) who leaves his wife and 6 children, most are grown. 1947-1957 Las Vegas address is 2047 W Charleston Bl which is northenmost L.V., just south of Fremont Street casinos, which at that time was the main part of gambling. Her husband is listed retired.
1953 Panama City News reports that Norma had built a 14 room mansion at Ft Lauderdale, FL
1957 Norma, who had used a wheelchair due to arthritis, dies of pneumonia after a stroke at 2047 W. Charleston Blvd., Las Vegas, NV, now condos, left her home in LV to husband, other real estate of 3 million (Santa Monica? Ft Laud. house, ?) to sisters.
Constance Alice "Dutch" history
DOB from 1900 census middle name from 1920 passport application, nickname from book. 1920 Constance applied for a passport which had a photo of her father and his address of 304 State St, Brooklyn, NY. She is living at the Hotel Savoy, NY and occupation is "motion picture star",
1920, Dec. 29 newspaper announces marriage of Constance at Greenwich, CT, to 26yo Greek-born, wealthy, recent (1912) emigrant, owner of Pialogiou Tobacco Co. on 1 Liberty St who lived in the St Regis Hotel , John J PIALOGIOU, (photo of them at Natalie's wedding in The Talmadge Girls book) reported in NYC newspaper, they were equally wealth as she makes $250K/yr and the numerous movies she had made by then, they lived apart from April, 1921 when she moved to CA and he did not move, probably due to his NY business
1922, June-Constance files divorce due to cruelty (courts required a reason), lives with Norma
L.A. newspaper listed highest paying tax payers, Constance paid $10K,
1926 Constance married 2nd time to Scottish Alistair MacIntoshat Jean de St Cyr, (a playboy made rich marrying older women who die and leave him inheritance, she may have met in as a producer in NYC) San Mateo, CA estate , abandoned during their honeymoon (he went to FL alone) stating she would seek a Edinburgh divorce on grounds of his adultry.
1927 divorce granted
1929- May Constance marries 3rd husband: wealthy, recent divorced (over their affair) Townsend NETCHER, who had been a Chicago VP of family owned, The Boston Store, retired by 40 and living off his company and real estate interest (his mother ran the business until 1955). she retires from making movies, married at sister Natalie's "Itallion Villa" mansion on Pamela Dr, Beverly Hills.
1930-Constance and Townsend Netcher build modest house at 1705 Chevy Chase Dr/Benedict Canyon Dr (north of sunset blvs), Beverly Hills, but city directory lists them living at Norma's 1020 Ocean Front (PCH) beach house 1933-1935, she 1935 onward.
1939 Connie divorces Netcher 1-'39 after 10 years marriage and 2.5 years marital desertion, remarries in 2 weeks in NYC at Chelsea Presbytarian Church to divorced (from Elizabeth with son Walter Jr) Chicago born Walter Michael GIBLIN, (John T, stock broker and Ida H. Jenkins), move to NYC when his ex wife and son move to Manhattan, he is a Wall St. stock broker,live at 115 E 67th St 1942
1946-1959 Constance is known to be an alcoholic, lives at the Drake Hotel, NY at 440 Park Ave (now demolished) with wall street broker husband, Walter Giblin. When he died in 1964 and left his fortune to her, his family berated her for it. She moved to Santa Monica, did she live with Nate or did Norma leave her house to her? Constance, the last to live, drank her life away and became "heavy" at the Beverly Wilshire Hotel, seen mainly by the bar staff, dying 1973.
Natalie "Nate" history
DOB from 1900 census, nick name from book
1921, Natalie marries 26yo Joseph Frank "Buster" Keaton, a vaudvaillian all his life now movie producer, he became an alcoholic like his own father, with erratic behavior, they had 2 sons and both given middle names of "Talmadge", div. They initially move to 4011 Ingraham St/Wilshire Blvd,
1922-Natalie has retired and lists herself a housewife in her 2 sons birth cert., living at 59 W. Mooreland Place, L.A., they had a succession of five homes around L.A. while Buster just wanted a cottage, he had erratic behavior so they div. 1932, raised her sons with Talmadge surname in northenmost Malibu, then Santa Monica.
L.A. newspaper listed highest paying tax payer: Natalie, $1,600,
1926 build the 10K sf "Itallion Villa" https://quintessentialruminations.wordpress.com/2013/08/13/buster-keatons-italian-villa/ for $200K, Nate had whole west wing while Buster preferred just a bedroom
1932 Nate divorced husband, writers claim she was demanding of his income and he couldn't keep up, she uses surname " Talmadge" in their schooling, they were court ordered no visits but rekindle with Buster in 1940's when they were adults. she got the house in the divorce but sold it.
1940 Natalie is raising her teen sons by Leo Carrillo state park on then Roosevelt Hwy, now PCH, Malibu, (almost to Pt Mugu) next door is Anatole Litvak, amazing she didn't get back into "the biz", sisters not found in census
1942 goes to court with adult sons who agree to change their surname to Talmadge and Joseph changed his first name to James
1966 Nate sufferred arthritis as her sister, Norma, according to the book, died disinterested in living in a Santa Monica Nursing home.
Natalie's sons:
surname changed in court 1942 (not at 1932 divorce) to Talmadge, both boys had the middle name of "Talmadge" so they just dropped their father's surname. Joseph changed his first name to James, his mother had always called him "Jimmy", they
grew up in Malibu, lived as adults in Santa Monica until 1970 atleast.
1950's the Keaton boys work for ex-uncle Schenck at 20th Century studios, .
1942 Joseph changed James "Jimmy" joined coast guard, married 1943 to Barbara Jane TICHENOR, (Geo. Emmons, teacher and Huldah Jane COONS, of MI and Santa Monica) lived Santa Monica within 10 bocks of Robert 1966 when mother died, by 1990's lived in Santa Ynez, had 3 sons, James Conner (d. 2007), Michael and Mark, dau. Melissa COX, nine gk, and 5 ggk by his 2007 death.
1942 Robert "Bob" NMN Talmadge, 18, registered for the draft, lived with his mother at 18904 malibu road, malibu, ca (the city of), worked for Fred R Clark at 18601 Malibu Rd, he married by 1954 (per her father's obit) to Esoleta (Patricia" "Pat") Marie McGough- Farmer (Lee P), b. 1916 Mitchell, TX, (Father:Thomas Newton McGough, Mother: Laura Vivian Cox, 1930 lived Colton, CA, she attended Pasadena JC) who had a son, Gerald Lee, in previous marriage, appears they had no children, lived in Santa Monica within 10 blocks of brother, Joe. cit directory places him in Reno in late '50's, in mother's 1966 obit Santa Monica, 1974 San Diego, by 1976 lives in Del Mar where he died 2009. Pat died 1991.
James' obit: Santa Ynez Valley News Feb. 25, 2007: James Talmadge
On Wednesday, Feb. 14, 2007, James Talmadge (born Joseph Talmadge Keaton) passed away peacefully with his wife of 63 years, the love of his life, Barbara Talmadge, by his side.
Born June 2, 1922, first-born son of Natalie Talmadge and comedian Buster Keaton, nephew of silent-screen actresses Norma and Constance Talmadge, Jim attended Blackfox Military Academy and Santa Monica High School.
Veteran:
He joined the U.S. Coast Guard in the summer of 1942 and volunteered for the OSS (Overseas Strategic Services, now the CIA) as an underwater demolition expert in 1943. He served in the CIB Theater (China, India, Burma), where he worked in a British one-man submarine wearing the Lambertson Rebreather Unit. While based in Ceylon, his mission was to blow up nets in Singapore, Hong Kong and Tokyo harbors. He trained in the Bahamas where they swam 14 hours a day. In one of his missions, he went out in a hurricane to recover the bodies of two British pilots who were shot down and trapped in their plane underwater.
After the war, he worked as a publicist/photographer at 20th Century Fox. He was an avid collector and expert on firearms. He also built and restored antique automobiles, especially Model T's, Model A's and boat-tail speedsters. He was an expert on Duesenbergs (he owned eight) and was often consulted for his knowledge on their history and restoration. He spent many years of his life with family and friends exploring and camping in the high deserts of California. Another of his favorite places to travel and spend time with his family was up in the High Sierra camps in Yosemite.
Born in Los Angeles, he lived in Southern California for 50 years. He spent the last 28 years (moved 1979) in the Santa Ynez Valley. He is survived by his wife, Barbara; his sons Michael Talmadge, Mark Talmadge; daughter Melissa Talmadge Cox; and his brother Bob Talmadge.
He was predeceased by his oldest son, Jim C. Talmadge, by two months.
He leaves behind daughters-in-law Rosie Talmadge, Betty Talmadge and Gail Talmadge; son-in-law Bill Cox; nine grandchildren and five great-grandchildren; and two nieces and two nephews.
This bio will focus more on family life and the ancestry of Peg and Fred Talmadge, but they were a part of the movie industry therefore information on their life timeline inclused that information. I am researching the Talmadge actresses parents family lines. My children are related to their father's maternal grandmother's CURTIS(S) family, Connecticut -Massachusette's-England history, so I care.
sources listed at each fact, but are: 1920-'24 passport applications of all, newspaper archives, census, city directories, birth, marriage, and death records, familysearch.org, and The Talmadge Girls book, (a 1970's memoir), by Loos, Anita, pub. 1978, (archive.org, many early life photos), who was a writer/editor working with them until 1925.
Peg's parents - a mystery:
A Tallmadge family tree on ancestry.com lists her maiden name as FRITTS, but has no source.
Constance 1929 marriage certificate and Peg's death certificate list her father is Frank Brown and mother ? Jose. Where they were born is confusing and not solid until I find her and family in 1870/80 census. 1900 she lists Ireland, 1910 & '20 she lists NY, 1930 not yet found. Norma's death certificate listed Peg's maiden name "Jose" and that she was born in Spain, but Norma's third husband, who never knew her mother, was certificate informant so I do not take his word. The clues I have (from published book by a person who knew them personally) are that her father was a plumber. So far, an 1870/'80 search NY and Jersey City for a man, born Ireland or NY, with a daughter named Margaret/Maggie/Peg/Louise, has not been found. Also, "plumber" was not a profession until indoor plumbing. He was also a member of the Catholic Knights of Columbus. No mention of siblings in the book. Ancestry.com nor Familysearch does not list a Frank or Francis Brown marrying a woman with surname Jose.
There is much on the statements Peg would make about life which sound like Irish idioms.
1893 Jersey City City directory lists Frank Brown, a plumber, at 130 Montgomery, no wife name.
Peg's DOB is dubious: each census and two 1920's passport applications lists: 1861, 1863, 1864, 1867 , her headstone has 1870.death certificate lists born 3 Nov 1864, her 1924 passport (a legal document) lists 1867, at Govenors Island, NY, (an Army base at that time), daughter of Frank BROWN and ? Jose. 1900 census she lists parents both born Ireland, thereafter New York.
She married, desperate, at age 29, January 15, 1893, From a memoire, her parents did not approve of her marriage so she broke relations with them., to CT-born and raised, 24yo, Frederick J Talmadge, the only child of CT-born, John W. and Martha (Curtiss) Talmadge of Bristol, Hartford Co, CT then moved by 1880 to Plainville, CT. Peg would refer to her husband as "that skunk", he had been a salesman of carnival-ware when they met, but often going job to job or not working according to Peg in a memoir. She made money as a "home laundress" and claimed she taught painting on black velvet to other homemakers, rented a bedroom to an Austrian waiter for $6 per week (who supposedly wanted to marry her, not found with them in census) and canvassed the neighbors to buy cosmetics. She claims they moved to Brooklyn soon after marriage but Norma is born in NJ. Fred would gain employment with the Jones Brothers Carnival company as a publicist and go on the road, not living with the family. Did Peg consider this abandonment? Or did she deny him returning to the family?
Why did Fred move to NYC as a young man? The couple first lived in Jersey City, NJ (according to Norma's birth) until 1896 then to Brooklyn, NY (according to Norma's 1924 passport application and census) had three daughters by 1900.
1900 Brooklyn, NY census, the family is boarding at 258-59th st / 2nd Ave near waterfront (just north of Coney Island) with the Alexander family: Fred, born CT, Margaret born NY of Irish-born parents. DOB of daughters is diff than headstones, but hard to argue with 1900 census :
Norma May (Marie in 1922 passport), 1894 NJ
Natalie M. "Nate", April 19, 1896 NY
Constance Alice "Dutch", April 29, 1898 NY
Fred works for a book publisher. There is a story that Fred abaondons the family Christmas, 1900, wrong year of this happening and the actuality.
1910 Brooklyn at 231 Fennimore, Brooklyn, NY, SE Prospect Park, couple together with 3 dau. aged: 11,13,15, either he did not abandon his family 1900 or it happened Christmas, 1910, he works as an advertising agent, Peg does not list she is a washer woman as she claims she was and there is no male roomate at this time, none of the girls are listed working. Margt now lists parents born NY vs Ireland. Peg would lie in a memoir that Fred left the family on xmas morning 1900 to get hamburgers at age 7, 8, 10, but here they are 1910 much older. A classmate of Norma and Nate was modeling for a photographer at Union Hill so Peg started 14yo Norma modeling $3 per day, lying that she was age 16. The Vitagraph Motion Picture Co. in Flatbush was a trolley ride away so Peg took some Illustrated song slides to show of Norma at the casting office to pass her off as a professional and she became a player. Peg engaged the help of Breta Breuill by her pushiness then continue "volunteering" in her office to have access to reading scripts. So Norma's work must have allowed her NOT to be a washer woman! She pushed Norma into get her on 100 short stories bit parts making $2.50 per day then $25 and becoming part of the stock company and droping out of high school two years later making $250 per week. She got Nat into being an office girl at Comique and started Constance "Dutch" working in movies. The lived in a hotel "in the west forties" and headed to Broadway. Norma started going to parties at the Ritz Hotel where she met Joe who with his brother, Nicholas FAG #6638759, had a studio and a New Jersey amusement park who also in the building was Fatty Arbuckle and " Buster" Keaton.
1915 state census, John is listed with them, Peg, all three girls aged 16, 18, 20, live at 254 Midwood, Brooklyn, the girls list occupation " working in films". CT grandfather John Talmadge dies, rumor has it that the girls went to his funeral and visited their grandmother as children, acting out plays at "the old stone house".
1916 Norma marries at Stamford, CT, 19 yrs senior, movie producer, Joseph Michael Schenck, "daddy", Peg got them out to Hollywood making a flop movie with D.W. Griffith to put the girls in movie Intollerance and Social Secretary for Norma, then returned to NY stating "Southern California doesn't live up to the postcards"! They all lived at the Ambassedor Hotel on Park Ave. The girls drove to studio or around NYC in a cadillac and Nate was working answering Norma and Constance's fan mail. Now that the girls were making money, Peg, close to her 50's, took on homemaker duties and being a mom vs a "stage mother". Constance was often partying in Harlem and the girls were friends of Fannie Brice who ran a dress shop out of her apartment where the girls often shopped for fancy dresses. Joe started working on getting Natalie and Joe "Buster" Keaton married.
1920 NYC census, Margaret, Natalie and Constance are living at 763 Fifth Ave, across the street from southern-most Central Park which makes this the Savoy-Plaza Hotel, demolished in 1965, also Natalie and Constance lists in 1920 passport living in Hotel Savoy which they could now afford because Constance is making one movie after another. Sail Mauritania? for trip to FRance, Spain,Holland, Belgian, Italy and S witzerland. From another story, Margaret identified husband, Fred, on an icy park bench in New York on Riverside Drive as they drove by in their "caddy", a drunken vagrant, Peg pointed him out to the girls. Constance insisted they rescue him and he later got work on film crews from son-in-law movie producer, Joseph Schenck. 1920 and '24 the Talmadge girls took European cruises while Constance or Norma made a film overseas and Peg accompanied.
1920 Peg applies for passport listing Fred living at Fulton Theater in Brooklyn? going to UK, France, Switzerland and 10 other countries, May to Sept
1920, Dec. 29 newspaper announces marriage of Constance at Greenwich, CT, to 26yo Greek-born, wealthy, recent (1912) emigrant, owner of Pialogiou Tobacco Co. on 1 Liberty St who lived in the St Regis Hotel , John J PIALOGIOU,
1921, Natalie marries 26yo Joseph Frank "Buster" Keaton,
June, according to Fred's death certificate, moved to CA. All moved to California since the days of sunshine made filming easier and less costly of NY light rental. At first they all lived in the Hollywood Hotel at 6811 Hollywood Blvd, where many silent film people lived
1922 Natalie has retired and lists herself a housewife
Constance files div. 5-1922 due to cruelty
1924 L.A. Constance and Norma listed living at 5341 Melrose ave, the "Jinx Mansion" (http://allanellenberger.com/tag/joseph-m-schenck/), which is south of Hollywood Forever Cem. this mansion was turned into an apartment building about 1950's. Nate still lives on Ingram St south of here.
1924 the whole family applies for passports.
L.A. newspaper listed highest paying tax payer, Margaret, $9K, to compare, Mary Pickford paid $2,400. Norma or husband not on the list.
1925 Fred dies, Margaret uses her maiden name. Frederick Talmadge died at the brand new Chase Diet Sanatorium of nephritis, Norma was generous in paying for his care and burying him in the family crypt,
1926-mother-in-law, Martha Culver-Talmadge dies January,
1930-Peg lives at Norma's Santa Monica beach house north of the Santa Monica Pier, 1020 Ocean Front, now Pacific Palisades/ PCH Hwy 1, with is just south of the inclind Rd, and below Washington Ave up the cliffs, still stands. lives here until her death.
1931 Margaret, has breast cancer, removing the left breast, but cancer metasticis to her lungs, killing her in 1933. death cert. listed she lived with dau. at Norma's beach house, 1933 several newspaper reports lies to the public of her contracting influenza while at Santa Monica home (which was Natalie's) then turned to pneumonia, Norma listed estranged from Joe and flying in from NY, Constance flew in from NY.
News papers report that both Constance and Norma owned their own production companies.
https://wfpp.columbia.edu/pioneer/ccp-constance-talmadge-and-norma-talmadge/
Norma history
DOB from 1900 census.
1916 Norma marries at Stamford, CT, 19 yrs senior, movie producer, Joseph Michael Schenck, "daddy", who emigrated with his parents Hiram and Elizabeth, bro Nicholas, sis. Annie NAYFACK (who all stayed living in NYC),naturalized 1901, one of the then heads of Loew Theaters, two months after they met at Ritz Hotel parties, due to Peg's chastity requirements.. He had a studio to film her early movies at 318 East Forty-Eighth St., helped her and sister Constance start their own production companies. he tried to get Sam Goldwyn (MGM) to hire Norma to no avail (I think Norma resented his failure). 1917 a news article stated Norma is making $1000/week, Joe and Norma owned a mansion at Bayside, NY, on Little Neck Bay, where the family had many parties and BBQ's. Peg got them out to Hollywood making a flop movie with D.W. Griffith to put the girls in movie Intollerance and Social Secretary for Norma, then returned to NY stating "Southern California doesn't live up to the postcards"! They all lived at the Ambassedor Hotel on Park Ave. The girls drove to studio or around NYC in a cadillac and Nate was working answering Norma and Constance's fan mail. Now that the girls were making money, Peg, close to her 50's, took on homemaker duties and being a mom vs a "stage mother". Joe and Norma owned a mansion at Bayside, NY, on Little Neck Bay, where the family had many parties and BBQ's. the girls were friends of Fannie Brice who ran a dress shop out of her apartment where the girls often shopped for fancy dresses. Joe influenced getting secretary Natalie and Joe "Buster" Keaton married. Between 1915-'20 there are numberous newspaper ads of salon only for Norma's type of hair curls or face cream ads.
1920 NYC census, Norma and Joe not yet found. mother, Margaret, Natalie and Constance are living at 763 Fifth Ave, across the street from southern-most Central Park which makes this the Savoy-Plaza Hotel, demolished in 1965. Did she Sail Mauritania? for trip to FRance, Spain,Holland, Belgian, Italy and S witzerland with mother and siblings? 1920 and '24 the Talmadge girls took European cruises while Constance or Norma made a film overseas.
1920 Norma and Joe Sail on Ship Imperator with the Pickfords: through the '20's tries voice lessons to break into "talkies", but is criticized, Constance told her to retire due to the trust funds their mother set up for them. She had made 5 million on her films.
1921, June: All moved to California since the days of sunshine made filming easier and less costly of NY light rental. At first they all lived in the Hollywood Hotel at 6811 Hollywood Blvd, where many silent film people lived and here Nate met Irving Thalberg who tried to maker her his wife, but she preferred partying with gay men, maybe he wasn't wealthy enough?
1922 Buy and move in the "Jinx Mansion" straight north of sister Nate on Wilshire/Ingram, the Ralph's grocery magnet's mansion on Hollywood Blvd/Fuller Ave (now an apartment).on a European trip, Joe securies some teaching in "Bolshevism" to see if "Sovietism" works, he is a Russian emigrant...another article mentions Norma and Constance travelling with him. were they called in during McCarthy era trials on communism?
1924 the whole family applies for passports. Norma lists addres as 7269 Hollywood blvd/ N. Fuller Ave, L.A.
1927 Norma separates from Joe, moves out of "Jinx Mansion" to Harper Ave/Sunset Blvd Apt., he moved but kept the house until 1940 when it was razed and Peyton Hall Apt built. book claims she wanted Joe buying her jewels. she started an affair with co-actor Gilbert Roland.
1928 John Byers builds a 6,500 sf, 6 bd/bath, Spanish Colonial house on Hwy 1, just north of the Santa Monica Pier, at 1020 Ocean Front Ave (now Palisades Beach Rd and still stands with a parking lot on the north side), her mother is listed living at that beach house in 1930-33. Her neighbors are Lewis B Mayer, Marion Davies (mistress of W. R. Hearst, seen at her funeral)
1930-1 the couple are listed in city directory at 1038 Ocean Front (PCH) although in the 1940's Joe buys Harry Warner (of Warner Bros) house at 609 Ocean Front,
1930's Joe start Twentith Century Studios with Darryl Zanuck but does not get work for Norma, is this really why she divorced him?
1934 Norma divorces Joseph after her mother dies, remarried 2 wks later at New Jersey by the mayor to comedian Geo. JESSEL.she now retired, proported to have made $7500/wk at the height of career, with crippling arthritis became addicted to pain pills. Joe is now president of United Artists and his brother Nicholas of MGM, In a 1934 passport she lists her address at 243 Clark Aee, Palm Beach, FL (not the house that stands there today), did she sell the Santa Monica house?
1935 Fl West Palm Beach census the couple listed at El Bravo Way, she retired
1939 Norma divorces Jessel.
1940 not found in census but must live at Santa Monica house until 1947 although she has West Palm Beach address
1947 marriage to her Beverly Hills physician Carvel JAMES (treated her arthritis) who leaves his wife and 6 children, most are grown. 1947-1957 Las Vegas address is 2047 W Charleston Bl which is northenmost L.V., just south of Fremont Street casinos, which at that time was the main part of gambling. Her husband is listed retired.
1953 Panama City News reports that Norma had built a 14 room mansion at Ft Lauderdale, FL
1957 Norma, who had used a wheelchair due to arthritis, dies of pneumonia after a stroke at 2047 W. Charleston Blvd., Las Vegas, NV, now condos, left her home in LV to husband, other real estate of 3 million (Santa Monica? Ft Laud. house, ?) to sisters.
Constance Alice "Dutch" history
DOB from 1900 census middle name from 1920 passport application, nickname from book. 1920 Constance applied for a passport which had a photo of her father and his address of 304 State St, Brooklyn, NY. She is living at the Hotel Savoy, NY and occupation is "motion picture star",
1920, Dec. 29 newspaper announces marriage of Constance at Greenwich, CT, to 26yo Greek-born, wealthy, recent (1912) emigrant, owner of Pialogiou Tobacco Co. on 1 Liberty St who lived in the St Regis Hotel , John J PIALOGIOU, (photo of them at Natalie's wedding in The Talmadge Girls book) reported in NYC newspaper, they were equally wealth as she makes $250K/yr and the numerous movies she had made by then, they lived apart from April, 1921 when she moved to CA and he did not move, probably due to his NY business
1922, June-Constance files divorce due to cruelty (courts required a reason), lives with Norma
L.A. newspaper listed highest paying tax payers, Constance paid $10K,
1926 Constance married 2nd time to Scottish Alistair MacIntoshat Jean de St Cyr, (a playboy made rich marrying older women who die and leave him inheritance, she may have met in as a producer in NYC) San Mateo, CA estate , abandoned during their honeymoon (he went to FL alone) stating she would seek a Edinburgh divorce on grounds of his adultry.
1927 divorce granted
1929- May Constance marries 3rd husband: wealthy, recent divorced (over their affair) Townsend NETCHER, who had been a Chicago VP of family owned, The Boston Store, retired by 40 and living off his company and real estate interest (his mother ran the business until 1955). she retires from making movies, married at sister Natalie's "Itallion Villa" mansion on Pamela Dr, Beverly Hills.
1930-Constance and Townsend Netcher build modest house at 1705 Chevy Chase Dr/Benedict Canyon Dr (north of sunset blvs), Beverly Hills, but city directory lists them living at Norma's 1020 Ocean Front (PCH) beach house 1933-1935, she 1935 onward.
1939 Connie divorces Netcher 1-'39 after 10 years marriage and 2.5 years marital desertion, remarries in 2 weeks in NYC at Chelsea Presbytarian Church to divorced (from Elizabeth with son Walter Jr) Chicago born Walter Michael GIBLIN, (John T, stock broker and Ida H. Jenkins), move to NYC when his ex wife and son move to Manhattan, he is a Wall St. stock broker,live at 115 E 67th St 1942
1946-1959 Constance is known to be an alcoholic, lives at the Drake Hotel, NY at 440 Park Ave (now demolished) with wall street broker husband, Walter Giblin. When he died in 1964 and left his fortune to her, his family berated her for it. She moved to Santa Monica, did she live with Nate or did Norma leave her house to her? Constance, the last to live, drank her life away and became "heavy" at the Beverly Wilshire Hotel, seen mainly by the bar staff, dying 1973.
Natalie "Nate" history
DOB from 1900 census, nick name from book
1921, Natalie marries 26yo Joseph Frank "Buster" Keaton, a vaudvaillian all his life now movie producer, he became an alcoholic like his own father, with erratic behavior, they had 2 sons and both given middle names of "Talmadge", div. They initially move to 4011 Ingraham St/Wilshire Blvd,
1922-Natalie has retired and lists herself a housewife in her 2 sons birth cert., living at 59 W. Mooreland Place, L.A., they had a succession of five homes around L.A. while Buster just wanted a cottage, he had erratic behavior so they div. 1932, raised her sons with Talmadge surname in northenmost Malibu, then Santa Monica.
L.A. newspaper listed highest paying tax payer: Natalie, $1,600,
1926 build the 10K sf "Itallion Villa" https://quintessentialruminations.wordpress.com/2013/08/13/buster-keatons-italian-villa/ for $200K, Nate had whole west wing while Buster preferred just a bedroom
1932 Nate divorced husband, writers claim she was demanding of his income and he couldn't keep up, she uses surname " Talmadge" in their schooling, they were court ordered no visits but rekindle with Buster in 1940's when they were adults. she got the house in the divorce but sold it.
1940 Natalie is raising her teen sons by Leo Carrillo state park on then Roosevelt Hwy, now PCH, Malibu, (almost to Pt Mugu) next door is Anatole Litvak, amazing she didn't get back into "the biz", sisters not found in census
1942 goes to court with adult sons who agree to change their surname to Talmadge and Joseph changed his first name to James
1966 Nate sufferred arthritis as her sister, Norma, according to the book, died disinterested in living in a Santa Monica Nursing home.
Natalie's sons:
surname changed in court 1942 (not at 1932 divorce) to Talmadge, both boys had the middle name of "Talmadge" so they just dropped their father's surname. Joseph changed his first name to James, his mother had always called him "Jimmy", they
grew up in Malibu, lived as adults in Santa Monica until 1970 atleast.
1950's the Keaton boys work for ex-uncle Schenck at 20th Century studios, .
1942 Joseph changed James "Jimmy" joined coast guard, married 1943 to Barbara Jane TICHENOR, (Geo. Emmons, teacher and Huldah Jane COONS, of MI and Santa Monica) lived Santa Monica within 10 bocks of Robert 1966 when mother died, by 1990's lived in Santa Ynez, had 3 sons, James Conner (d. 2007), Michael and Mark, dau. Melissa COX, nine gk, and 5 ggk by his 2007 death.
1942 Robert "Bob" NMN Talmadge, 18, registered for the draft, lived with his mother at 18904 malibu road, malibu, ca (the city of), worked for Fred R Clark at 18601 Malibu Rd, he married by 1954 (per her father's obit) to Esoleta (Patricia" "Pat") Marie McGough- Farmer (Lee P), b. 1916 Mitchell, TX, (Father:Thomas Newton McGough, Mother: Laura Vivian Cox, 1930 lived Colton, CA, she attended Pasadena JC) who had a son, Gerald Lee, in previous marriage, appears they had no children, lived in Santa Monica within 10 blocks of brother, Joe. cit directory places him in Reno in late '50's, in mother's 1966 obit Santa Monica, 1974 San Diego, by 1976 lives in Del Mar where he died 2009. Pat died 1991.
James' obit: Santa Ynez Valley News Feb. 25, 2007: James Talmadge
On Wednesday, Feb. 14, 2007, James Talmadge (born Joseph Talmadge Keaton) passed away peacefully with his wife of 63 years, the love of his life, Barbara Talmadge, by his side.
Born June 2, 1922, first-born son of Natalie Talmadge and comedian Buster Keaton, nephew of silent-screen actresses Norma and Constance Talmadge, Jim attended Blackfox Military Academy and Santa Monica High School.
Veteran:
He joined the U.S. Coast Guard in the summer of 1942 and volunteered for the OSS (Overseas Strategic Services, now the CIA) as an underwater demolition expert in 1943. He served in the CIB Theater (China, India, Burma), where he worked in a British one-man submarine wearing the Lambertson Rebreather Unit. While based in Ceylon, his mission was to blow up nets in Singapore, Hong Kong and Tokyo harbors. He trained in the Bahamas where they swam 14 hours a day. In one of his missions, he went out in a hurricane to recover the bodies of two British pilots who were shot down and trapped in their plane underwater.
After the war, he worked as a publicist/photographer at 20th Century Fox. He was an avid collector and expert on firearms. He also built and restored antique automobiles, especially Model T's, Model A's and boat-tail speedsters. He was an expert on Duesenbergs (he owned eight) and was often consulted for his knowledge on their history and restoration. He spent many years of his life with family and friends exploring and camping in the high deserts of California. Another of his favorite places to travel and spend time with his family was up in the High Sierra camps in Yosemite.
Born in Los Angeles, he lived in Southern California for 50 years. He spent the last 28 years (moved 1979) in the Santa Ynez Valley. He is survived by his wife, Barbara; his sons Michael Talmadge, Mark Talmadge; daughter Melissa Talmadge Cox; and his brother Bob Talmadge.
He was predeceased by his oldest son, Jim C. Talmadge, by two months.
He leaves behind daughters-in-law Rosie Talmadge, Betty Talmadge and Gail Talmadge; son-in-law Bill Cox; nine grandchildren and five great-grandchildren; and two nieces and two nephews.
sources listed at each fact, but are: 1920-'24 passport applications of all, newspaper archives, census, city directories, birth, marriage, and death records, familysearch.org, and The Talmadge Girls book, (a 1970's memoir), by Loos, Anita, pub. 1978, (archive.org, many early life photos), who was a writer/editor working with them until 1925.
Peg's parents - a mystery:
A Tallmadge family tree on ancestry.com lists her maiden name as FRITTS, but has no source.
Constance 1929 marriage certificate and Peg's death certificate list her father is Frank Brown and mother ? Jose. Where they were born is confusing and not solid until I find her and family in 1870/80 census. 1900 she lists Ireland, 1910 & '20 she lists NY, 1930 not yet found. Norma's death certificate listed Peg's maiden name "Jose" and that she was born in Spain, but Norma's third husband, who never knew her mother, was certificate informant so I do not take his word. The clues I have (from published book by a person who knew them personally) are that her father was a plumber. So far, an 1870/'80 search NY and Jersey City for a man, born Ireland or NY, with a daughter named Margaret/Maggie/Peg/Louise, has not been found. Also, "plumber" was not a profession until indoor plumbing. He was also a member of the Catholic Knights of Columbus. No mention of siblings in the book. Ancestry.com nor Familysearch does not list a Frank or Francis Brown marrying a woman with surname Jose.
There is much on the statements Peg would make about life which sound like Irish idioms.
1893 Jersey City City directory lists Frank Brown, a plumber, at 130 Montgomery, no wife name.
Peg's DOB is dubious: each census and two 1920's passport applications lists: 1861, 1863, 1864, 1867 , her headstone has 1870.death certificate lists born 3 Nov 1864, her 1924 passport (a legal document) lists 1867, at Govenors Island, NY, (an Army base at that time), daughter of Frank BROWN and ? Jose. 1900 census she lists parents both born Ireland, thereafter New York.
She married, desperate, at age 29, January 15, 1893, From a memoire, her parents did not approve of her marriage so she broke relations with them., to CT-born and raised, 24yo, Frederick J Talmadge, the only child of CT-born, John W. and Martha (Curtiss) Talmadge of Bristol, Hartford Co, CT then moved by 1880 to Plainville, CT. Peg would refer to her husband as "that skunk", he had been a salesman of carnival-ware when they met, but often going job to job or not working according to Peg in a memoir. She made money as a "home laundress" and claimed she taught painting on black velvet to other homemakers, rented a bedroom to an Austrian waiter for $6 per week (who supposedly wanted to marry her, not found with them in census) and canvassed the neighbors to buy cosmetics. She claims they moved to Brooklyn soon after marriage but Norma is born in NJ. Fred would gain employment with the Jones Brothers Carnival company as a publicist and go on the road, not living with the family. Did Peg consider this abandonment? Or did she deny him returning to the family?
Why did Fred move to NYC as a young man? The couple first lived in Jersey City, NJ (according to Norma's birth) until 1896 then to Brooklyn, NY (according to Norma's 1924 passport application and census) had three daughters by 1900.
1900 Brooklyn, NY census, the family is boarding at 258-59th st / 2nd Ave near waterfront (just north of Coney Island) with the Alexander family: Fred, born CT, Margaret born NY of Irish-born parents. DOB of daughters is diff than headstones, but hard to argue with 1900 census :
Norma May (Marie in 1922 passport), 1894 NJ
Natalie M. "Nate", April 19, 1896 NY
Constance Alice "Dutch", April 29, 1898 NY
Fred works for a book publisher. There is a story that Fred abaondons the family Christmas, 1900, wrong year of this happening and the actuality.
1910 Brooklyn at 231 Fennimore, Brooklyn, NY, SE Prospect Park, couple together with 3 dau. aged: 11,13,15, either he did not abandon his family 1900 or it happened Christmas, 1910, he works as an advertising agent, Peg does not list she is a washer woman as she claims she was and there is no male roomate at this time, none of the girls are listed working. Margt now lists parents born NY vs Ireland. Peg would lie in a memoir that Fred left the family on xmas morning 1900 to get hamburgers at age 7, 8, 10, but here they are 1910 much older. A classmate of Norma and Nate was modeling for a photographer at Union Hill so Peg started 14yo Norma modeling $3 per day, lying that she was age 16. The Vitagraph Motion Picture Co. in Flatbush was a trolley ride away so Peg took some Illustrated song slides to show of Norma at the casting office to pass her off as a professional and she became a player. Peg engaged the help of Breta Breuill by her pushiness then continue "volunteering" in her office to have access to reading scripts. So Norma's work must have allowed her NOT to be a washer woman! She pushed Norma into get her on 100 short stories bit parts making $2.50 per day then $25 and becoming part of the stock company and droping out of high school two years later making $250 per week. She got Nat into being an office girl at Comique and started Constance "Dutch" working in movies. The lived in a hotel "in the west forties" and headed to Broadway. Norma started going to parties at the Ritz Hotel where she met Joe who with his brother, Nicholas FAG #6638759, had a studio and a New Jersey amusement park who also in the building was Fatty Arbuckle and " Buster" Keaton.
1915 state census, John is listed with them, Peg, all three girls aged 16, 18, 20, live at 254 Midwood, Brooklyn, the girls list occupation " working in films". CT grandfather John Talmadge dies, rumor has it that the girls went to his funeral and visited their grandmother as children, acting out plays at "the old stone house".
1916 Norma marries at Stamford, CT, 19 yrs senior, movie producer, Joseph Michael Schenck, "daddy", Peg got them out to Hollywood making a flop movie with D.W. Griffith to put the girls in movie Intollerance and Social Secretary for Norma, then returned to NY stating "Southern California doesn't live up to the postcards"! They all lived at the Ambassedor Hotel on Park Ave. The girls drove to studio or around NYC in a cadillac and Nate was working answering Norma and Constance's fan mail. Now that the girls were making money, Peg, close to her 50's, took on homemaker duties and being a mom vs a "stage mother". Constance was often partying in Harlem and the girls were friends of Fannie Brice who ran a dress shop out of her apartment where the girls often shopped for fancy dresses. Joe started working on getting Natalie and Joe "Buster" Keaton married.
1920 NYC census, Margaret, Natalie and Constance are living at 763 Fifth Ave, across the street from southern-most Central Park which makes this the Savoy-Plaza Hotel, demolished in 1965, also Natalie and Constance lists in 1920 passport living in Hotel Savoy which they could now afford because Constance is making one movie after another. Sail Mauritania? for trip to FRance, Spain,Holland, Belgian, Italy and S witzerland. From another story, Margaret identified husband, Fred, on an icy park bench in New York on Riverside Drive as they drove by in their "caddy", a drunken vagrant, Peg pointed him out to the girls. Constance insisted they rescue him and he later got work on film crews from son-in-law movie producer, Joseph Schenck. 1920 and '24 the Talmadge girls took European cruises while Constance or Norma made a film overseas and Peg accompanied.
1920 Peg applies for passport listing Fred living at Fulton Theater in Brooklyn? going to UK, France, Switzerland and 10 other countries, May to Sept
1920, Dec. 29 newspaper announces marriage of Constance at Greenwich, CT, to 26yo Greek-born, wealthy, recent (1912) emigrant, owner of Pialogiou Tobacco Co. on 1 Liberty St who lived in the St Regis Hotel , John J PIALOGIOU,
1921, Natalie marries 26yo Joseph Frank "Buster" Keaton,
June, according to Fred's death certificate, moved to CA. All moved to California since the days of sunshine made filming easier and less costly of NY light rental. At first they all lived in the Hollywood Hotel at 6811 Hollywood Blvd, where many silent film people lived
1922 Natalie has retired and lists herself a housewife
Constance files div. 5-1922 due to cruelty
1924 L.A. Constance and Norma listed living at 5341 Melrose ave, the "Jinx Mansion" (http://allanellenberger.com/tag/joseph-m-schenck/), which is south of Hollywood Forever Cem. this mansion was turned into an apartment building about 1950's. Nate still lives on Ingram St south of here.
1924 the whole family applies for passports.
L.A. newspaper listed highest paying tax payer, Margaret, $9K, to compare, Mary Pickford paid $2,400. Norma or husband not on the list.
1925 Fred dies, Margaret uses her maiden name. Frederick Talmadge died at the brand new Chase Diet Sanatorium of nephritis, Norma was generous in paying for his care and burying him in the family crypt,
1926-mother-in-law, Martha Culver-Talmadge dies January,
1930-Peg lives at Norma's Santa Monica beach house north of the Santa Monica Pier, 1020 Ocean Front, now Pacific Palisades/ PCH Hwy 1, with is just south of the inclind Rd, and below Washington Ave up the cliffs, still stands. lives here until her death.
1931 Margaret, has breast cancer, removing the left breast, but cancer metasticis to her lungs, killing her in 1933. death cert. listed she lived with dau. at Norma's beach house, 1933 several newspaper reports lies to the public of her contracting influenza while at Santa Monica home (which was Natalie's) then turned to pneumonia, Norma listed estranged from Joe and flying in from NY, Constance flew in from NY.
News papers report that both Constance and Norma owned their own production companies.
https://wfpp.columbia.edu/pioneer/ccp-constance-talmadge-and-norma-talmadge/
Norma history
DOB from 1900 census.
1916 Norma marries at Stamford, CT, 19 yrs senior, movie producer, Joseph Michael Schenck, "daddy", who emigrated with his parents Hiram and Elizabeth, bro Nicholas, sis. Annie NAYFACK (who all stayed living in NYC),naturalized 1901, one of the then heads of Loew Theaters, two months after they met at Ritz Hotel parties, due to Peg's chastity requirements.. He had a studio to film her early movies at 318 East Forty-Eighth St., helped her and sister Constance start their own production companies. he tried to get Sam Goldwyn (MGM) to hire Norma to no avail (I think Norma resented his failure). 1917 a news article stated Norma is making $1000/week, Joe and Norma owned a mansion at Bayside, NY, on Little Neck Bay, where the family had many parties and BBQ's. Peg got them out to Hollywood making a flop movie with D.W. Griffith to put the girls in movie Intollerance and Social Secretary for Norma, then returned to NY stating "Southern California doesn't live up to the postcards"! They all lived at the Ambassedor Hotel on Park Ave. The girls drove to studio or around NYC in a cadillac and Nate was working answering Norma and Constance's fan mail. Now that the girls were making money, Peg, close to her 50's, took on homemaker duties and being a mom vs a "stage mother". Joe and Norma owned a mansion at Bayside, NY, on Little Neck Bay, where the family had many parties and BBQ's. the girls were friends of Fannie Brice who ran a dress shop out of her apartment where the girls often shopped for fancy dresses. Joe influenced getting secretary Natalie and Joe "Buster" Keaton married. Between 1915-'20 there are numberous newspaper ads of salon only for Norma's type of hair curls or face cream ads.
1920 NYC census, Norma and Joe not yet found. mother, Margaret, Natalie and Constance are living at 763 Fifth Ave, across the street from southern-most Central Park which makes this the Savoy-Plaza Hotel, demolished in 1965. Did she Sail Mauritania? for trip to FRance, Spain,Holland, Belgian, Italy and S witzerland with mother and siblings? 1920 and '24 the Talmadge girls took European cruises while Constance or Norma made a film overseas.
1920 Norma and Joe Sail on Ship Imperator with the Pickfords: through the '20's tries voice lessons to break into "talkies", but is criticized, Constance told her to retire due to the trust funds their mother set up for them. She had made 5 million on her films.
1921, June: All moved to California since the days of sunshine made filming easier and less costly of NY light rental. At first they all lived in the Hollywood Hotel at 6811 Hollywood Blvd, where many silent film people lived and here Nate met Irving Thalberg who tried to maker her his wife, but she preferred partying with gay men, maybe he wasn't wealthy enough?
1922 Buy and move in the "Jinx Mansion" straight north of sister Nate on Wilshire/Ingram, the Ralph's grocery magnet's mansion on Hollywood Blvd/Fuller Ave (now an apartment).on a European trip, Joe securies some teaching in "Bolshevism" to see if "Sovietism" works, he is a Russian emigrant...another article mentions Norma and Constance travelling with him. were they called in during McCarthy era trials on communism?
1924 the whole family applies for passports. Norma lists addres as 7269 Hollywood blvd/ N. Fuller Ave, L.A.
1927 Norma separates from Joe, moves out of "Jinx Mansion" to Harper Ave/Sunset Blvd Apt., he moved but kept the house until 1940 when it was razed and Peyton Hall Apt built. book claims she wanted Joe buying her jewels. she started an affair with co-actor Gilbert Roland.
1928 John Byers builds a 6,500 sf, 6 bd/bath, Spanish Colonial house on Hwy 1, just north of the Santa Monica Pier, at 1020 Ocean Front Ave (now Palisades Beach Rd and still stands with a parking lot on the north side), her mother is listed living at that beach house in 1930-33. Her neighbors are Lewis B Mayer, Marion Davies (mistress of W. R. Hearst, seen at her funeral)
1930-1 the couple are listed in city directory at 1038 Ocean Front (PCH) although in the 1940's Joe buys Harry Warner (of Warner Bros) house at 609 Ocean Front,
1930's Joe start Twentith Century Studios with Darryl Zanuck but does not get work for Norma, is this really why she divorced him?
1934 Norma divorces Joseph after her mother dies, remarried 2 wks later at New Jersey by the mayor to comedian Geo. JESSEL.she now retired, proported to have made $7500/wk at the height of career, with crippling arthritis became addicted to pain pills. Joe is now president of United Artists and his brother Nicholas of MGM, In a 1934 passport she lists her address at 243 Clark Aee, Palm Beach, FL (not the house that stands there today), did she sell the Santa Monica house?
1935 Fl West Palm Beach census the couple listed at El Bravo Way, she retired
1939 Norma divorces Jessel.
1940 not found in census but must live at Santa Monica house until 1947 although she has West Palm Beach address
1947 marriage to her Beverly Hills physician Carvel JAMES (treated her arthritis) who leaves his wife and 6 children, most are grown. 1947-1957 Las Vegas address is 2047 W Charleston Bl which is northenmost L.V., just south of Fremont Street casinos, which at that time was the main part of gambling. Her husband is listed retired.
1953 Panama City News reports that Norma had built a 14 room mansion at Ft Lauderdale, FL
1957 Norma, who had used a wheelchair due to arthritis, dies of pneumonia after a stroke at 2047 W. Charleston Blvd., Las Vegas, NV, now condos, left her home in LV to husband, other real estate of 3 million (Santa Monica? Ft Laud. house, ?) to sisters.
Constance Alice "Dutch" history
DOB from 1900 census middle name from 1920 passport application, nickname from book. 1920 Constance applied for a passport which had a photo of her father and his address of 304 State St, Brooklyn, NY. She is living at the Hotel Savoy, NY and occupation is "motion picture star",
1920, Dec. 29 newspaper announces marriage of Constance at Greenwich, CT, to 26yo Greek-born, wealthy, recent (1912) emigrant, owner of Pialogiou Tobacco Co. on 1 Liberty St who lived in the St Regis Hotel , John J PIALOGIOU, (photo of them at Natalie's wedding in The Talmadge Girls book) reported in NYC newspaper, they were equally wealth as she makes $250K/yr and the numerous movies she had made by then, they lived apart from April, 1921 when she moved to CA and he did not move, probably due to his NY business
1922, June-Constance files divorce due to cruelty (courts required a reason), lives with Norma
L.A. newspaper listed highest paying tax payers, Constance paid $10K,
1926 Constance married 2nd time to Scottish Alistair MacIntoshat Jean de St Cyr, (a playboy made rich marrying older women who die and leave him inheritance, she may have met in as a producer in NYC) San Mateo, CA estate , abandoned during their honeymoon (he went to FL alone) stating she would seek a Edinburgh divorce on grounds of his adultry.
1927 divorce granted
1929- May Constance marries 3rd husband: wealthy, recent divorced (over their affair) Townsend NETCHER, who had been a Chicago VP of family owned, The Boston Store, retired by 40 and living off his company and real estate interest (his mother ran the business until 1955). she retires from making movies, married at sister Natalie's "Itallion Villa" mansion on Pamela Dr, Beverly Hills.
1930-Constance and Townsend Netcher build modest house at 1705 Chevy Chase Dr/Benedict Canyon Dr (north of sunset blvs), Beverly Hills, but city directory lists them living at Norma's 1020 Ocean Front (PCH) beach house 1933-1935, she 1935 onward.
1939 Connie divorces Netcher 1-'39 after 10 years marriage and 2.5 years marital desertion, remarries in 2 weeks in NYC at Chelsea Presbytarian Church to divorced (from Elizabeth with son Walter Jr) Chicago born Walter Michael GIBLIN, (John T, stock broker and Ida H. Jenkins), move to NYC when his ex wife and son move to Manhattan, he is a Wall St. stock broker,live at 115 E 67th St 1942
1946-1959 Constance is known to be an alcoholic, lives at the Drake Hotel, NY at 440 Park Ave (now demolished) with wall street broker husband, Walter Giblin. When he died in 1964 and left his fortune to her, his family berated her for it. She moved to Santa Monica, did she live with Nate or did Norma leave her house to her? Constance, the last to live, drank her life away and became "heavy" at the Beverly Wilshire Hotel, seen mainly by the bar staff, dying 1973.
Natalie "Nate" history
DOB from 1900 census, nick name from book
1921, Natalie marries 26yo Joseph Frank "Buster" Keaton, a vaudvaillian all his life now movie producer, he became an alcoholic like his own father, with erratic behavior, they had 2 sons and both given middle names of "Talmadge", div. They initially move to 4011 Ingraham St/Wilshire Blvd,
1922-Natalie has retired and lists herself a housewife in her 2 sons birth cert., living at 59 W. Mooreland Place, L.A., they had a succession of five homes around L.A. while Buster just wanted a cottage, he had erratic behavior so they div. 1932, raised her sons with Talmadge surname in northenmost Malibu, then Santa Monica.
L.A. newspaper listed highest paying tax payer: Natalie, $1,600,
1926 build the 10K sf "Itallion Villa" https://quintessentialruminations.wordpress.com/2013/08/13/buster-keatons-italian-villa/ for $200K, Nate had whole west wing while Buster preferred just a bedroom
1932 Nate divorced husband, writers claim she was demanding of his income and he couldn't keep up, she uses surname " Talmadge" in their schooling, they were court ordered no visits but rekindle with Buster in 1940's when they were adults. she got the house in the divorce but sold it.
1940 Natalie is raising her teen sons by Leo Carrillo state park on then Roosevelt Hwy, now PCH, Malibu, (almost to Pt Mugu) next door is Anatole Litvak, amazing she didn't get back into "the biz", sisters not found in census
1942 goes to court with adult sons who agree to change their surname to Talmadge and Joseph changed his first name to James
1966 Nate sufferred arthritis as her sister, Norma, according to the book, died disinterested in living in a Santa Monica Nursing home.
Natalie's sons:
surname changed in court 1942 (not at 1932 divorce) to Talmadge, both boys had the middle name of "Talmadge" so they just dropped their father's surname. Joseph changed his first name to James, his mother had always called him "Jimmy", they
grew up in Malibu, lived as adults in Santa Monica until 1970 atleast.
1950's the Keaton boys work for ex-uncle Schenck at 20th Century studios, .
1942 Joseph changed James "Jimmy" joined coast guard, married 1943 to Barbara Jane TICHENOR, (Geo. Emmons, teacher and Huldah Jane COONS, of MI and Santa Monica) lived Santa Monica within 10 bocks of Robert 1966 when mother died, by 1990's lived in Santa Ynez, had 3 sons, James Conner (d. 2007), Michael and Mark, dau. Melissa COX, nine gk, and 5 ggk by his 2007 death.
1942 Robert "Bob" NMN Talmadge, 18, registered for the draft, lived with his mother at 18904 malibu road, malibu, ca (the city of), worked for Fred R Clark at 18601 Malibu Rd, he married by 1954 (per her father's obit) to Esoleta (Patricia" "Pat") Marie McGough- Farmer (Lee P), b. 1916 Mitchell, TX, (Father:Thomas Newton McGough, Mother: Laura Vivian Cox, 1930 lived Colton, CA, she attended Pasadena JC) who had a son, Gerald Lee, in previous marriage, appears they had no children, lived in Santa Monica within 10 blocks of brother, Joe. cit directory places him in Reno in late '50's, in mother's 1966 obit Santa Monica, 1974 San Diego, by 1976 lives in Del Mar where he died 2009. Pat died 1991.
James' obit: Santa Ynez Valley News Feb. 25, 2007: James Talmadge
On Wednesday, Feb. 14, 2007, James Talmadge (born Joseph Talmadge Keaton) passed away peacefully with his wife of 63 years, the love of his life, Barbara Talmadge, by his side.
Born June 2, 1922, first-born son of Natalie Talmadge and comedian Buster Keaton, nephew of silent-screen actresses Norma and Constance Talmadge, Jim attended Blackfox Military Academy and Santa Monica High School.
Veteran:
He joined the U.S. Coast Guard in the summer of 1942 and volunteered for the OSS (Overseas Strategic Services, now the CIA) as an underwater demolition expert in 1943. He served in the CIB Theater (China, India, Burma), where he worked in a British one-man submarine wearing the Lambertson Rebreather Unit. While based in Ceylon, his mission was to blow up nets in Singapore, Hong Kong and Tokyo harbors. He trained in the Bahamas where they swam 14 hours a day. In one of his missions, he went out in a hurricane to recover the bodies of two British pilots who were shot down and trapped in their plane underwater.
After the war, he worked as a publicist/photographer at 20th Century Fox. He was an avid collector and expert on firearms. He also built and restored antique automobiles, especially Model T's, Model A's and boat-tail speedsters. He was an expert on Duesenbergs (he owned eight) and was often consulted for his knowledge on their history and restoration. He spent many years of his life with family and friends exploring and camping in the high deserts of California. Another of his favorite places to travel and spend time with his family was up in the High Sierra camps in Yosemite.
Born in Los Angeles, he lived in Southern California for 50 years. He spent the last 28 years (moved 1979) in the Santa Ynez Valley. He is survived by his wife, Barbara; his sons Michael Talmadge, Mark Talmadge; daughter Melissa Talmadge Cox; and his brother Bob Talmadge.
He was predeceased by his oldest son, Jim C. Talmadge, by two months.
He leaves behind daughters-in-law Rosie Talmadge, Betty Talmadge and Gail Talmadge; son-in-law Bill Cox; nine grandchildren and five great-grandchildren; and two nieces and two nephews.
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